君子不器

A Ku Indeed!

15.24: The Shu of Confucian Parenting

In my thread below this one, “Tao of Kids,” I was reflecting a bit on the seemingly Taoist message (in poem 42) that using legalistic procedures of correcting and punishing a misbehaving child will likely not lead to changed behavior. If anything, it leads to more resistance (and to the cultivation of cleverness). Instead, positive reinforcement seems to do the trick.

I wondered whether this can be connected to the need (in Taoism)  for a person to surrender their own ego- on the need to give up on the desire to forcefully impose on the child your own will, and to step back from the egoistic urge to strike back at the child after he/she defies you. Instead, a Taoist parent might replace that urge with simply praising behavior that is good. I also mentioned in that thread that I thought here were Confucian points in that discussion too, so in this thread I’d like to think a bit about extending the discussion to Confucianism. I’ll say a few things about that below.

Not punishing is not an easy thing to do (for me, anyway). I don’t deal well with my children defying me when I tell them to do this or that. It’s just me. It’s one of those buttons can be pushed on me pretty quickly that sets me off. As I was thumbing through the Analects, thinking of this theme, I came across 15.21. It reads: “The Master said, ‘Exemplary persons (junzi) make demands on themselves, while petty people make demands on others.”

Of course, passage 15.21 makes a broad point, but it seems to fit the theme of Taoist wu-wei action in parenting. In resisting the urgings of your own ego, and of your own petty desires to enforce a specific code on others by making harsh demands on them, you pull back and make demands on yourself — namely by not giving in to such a petty impulse. You stop yourself from “striking back” at defiance and overcome the need to do it. By learning to do this, to make demands on yourself (in overcoming the desire) and not on others (but forcing them to toe the line through punishment), you are left with the more natural route of modeling and praising good behavior, a route that seems more natural and which seems to work out just right. All of which is pretty wu-wei.

Parenting and Shu

I should add here that it is clear that the passage of 15.21 appears a few sayings in the text before 15.24, which is one of the central passages in Analects for the doctrine of shu, so it might be connected to it. Perhaps there’s a Confucian point about shu and parenting?

To those who don’t know, shu is understood as the art of being flexible when in a position of power, specifically when dealing with those who are subordinate to you. Of course, Confucius means more specifically here flexibility in terms of ritual (li), so he is typically referring to the need to allow people to adapt to the particularities of their own unique circumstances in ways that might require some modifications of what is ritually expected of them. In fact, one way of reading Confucius’ claims about those (leaders, typically) who fail at shu (such as Zigong) is that such people have egoistic drives (such as the enjoyment of wielding power) that lead them to insist on robotic performances of ritual from their subordinates. Thus, since they never really have the well being of their subordinates in mind, they can’t seem to overcome those petty inclinations for control.

What I am wondering is whether the observations about parenting above (and in the other thread) open up a possible further reading of the meaning of shu. After all, in the typical reading of shu, the subordinate is trying to do something right when the superior is flexible. So, typical readings of shu read it as needing to be applied when the subordinate is perceived by the superior as doing their best (when they are loyal, or zhong). The superior must be capable of recognizing this (a type of practical wisdom on the part of superiors) and thus capable of “opening up a space” for the subordinate’s virtue to flourish in just the right way through on the spot adaptation.

Immediately it looks like shu and parenting don’t fit. In the case of parenting a disobedient child, the child is not doing what is right – instead, they are being defiant. So they are not trying their best and the typical response would be: so why be shu? I wonder, however, whether parenting reveals that the meaning of shu can (or should)

To start, let’s look at shu in terms of its general formulation, which is not doing others, what you don’t want them to do to you. So shu is understood in this more general formulation as the silver rule. By these lights, flexibility against a backdrop of effort by the subordinate should be seen as one application of shu, but not its definition (which would be the more general silver rule).

So now the question is: can the observations above about parenting fit the silver rule? It seems that it can fit. Even when a person is acting badly, this is no excuse to treat them in a petty way, which is a way in which you yourself would not want to be treated. Basically, when a child is defying you and you react in terms of pettiness, you forget your role as a parent because the child’s well being is no longer a concern. Instead, it’s the satisfaction of our own desires. In this way, this way of talking links up with the discussion of being flexible with subordinates, because non-flexibility is always motivated by a desire for petty control and a failure to be concerned with the other’s development.

So what does shu council? I wonder whether 14.34 is a good saying here to think of applying shu to parenting:

Someone remarked: “Always repay an injury with a good turn.” What do you think of this saying? The Master remarked, “What then, do you repay a good turn with? You repay an injury with straightness, and you repay a good turn with a good turn.”

In other words, when the child defies you, it is perhaps best not to punish or overly correct, which would be to repay an injury with an injury (since it is motivated by pettiness, and has little salutary effect). Still you should not repay it with a good turn (praise, reward). That leaves an obvious third option: ignore the child and do not allow his/her behavior to take root. This maintains “straightness” (non-petty inclination while keeping the child’s best interests at heart) while not praising or benefiting (a good turn) the child in any way and thus doing the child harm (which would not be shu). On the other hand, when the child is good (a good turn), repay this with a good turn (praise).

By the way — all of this theoretical hubbub to the side — I’ve been successful at maintaining shu parenting for about 53 hours now. Still effective!

7 Comments

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Two brilliant posts, CP. Sarah and I too have found that the Taoist approach works wonders with children. Case in point: we’ve had a problem lately with our daughter trying to climb the stairs to our loft in our apartment. We’ve searched unsuccessfully for a safety baby gate (which are non-existent in South Korea, we’ve decided), and we’ve gone so far as to stack up whatever we can in front of the stairs to keep her off of them.

She kept going over. And over. She’s persistent–everything we put in front, she moves or climbs over.

I really think that Taoism’s lesson is that true superiority is knowing which battles you need to fight in the first place. Clearly, we weren’t really doing any good stopping her from climbing–she would throw crying fits if she couldn’t get over or around what we were stacking up. This was a battle that would only result in a Pyrrhic victory–we get what we want (no infant on the stairs) at a significant cost (a pissed-off infant).

So lately, we took the Taoist approach and taught her how to climb stairs and come back down safely. Of course, we never let her go up out of arms reach, but she hasn’t fallen since we’ve taught her what to do. Its worked perfectly. No more obstacle for anyone to go over (as it was a pain the ass to move chairs and ottomans out of the way every single time we needed to run upstairs), and a happy infant. In fact, we’re sort of seeing the novelty of the stairs wear off and she doesn’t climb as much. Good for everyone.

Comment by Will on 2009?09?20? 4:10 am


Hey Chris, interesting stuff. I’ll send you the paper I wrote offering a Confucian argument against punishment in moral education.

I actually think punishment has a place in child rearing, though not as a means of securing compliance on day to day sorts of matters. So long as what’s as stake are things like cooperation getting dressed or at the grocery store, I agree with the idea that trying to compel compliance is likely to backfire. It’s different, though, when the stakes are higher and safety or serious moral issues are involved.

I like Jean Hampton’s paper “A Moral Education Theory of Punishment”. She argues that the point of punishment is to mark moral boundaries. To use one of her examples, we punish cheating in school because it’s a moral transgression, whereas we don’t punish cheating at solitaire because nothing’s at stake. The point of punishing cheating is to say, in effect and in a manner that can’t be ignored, ‘this is wrong and you shouldn’t do it because it’s wrong.’ This is, I think, rather different than compelling compliance.

This distinction, by the way, is lost on Alfie Kohn, who came up in the comments to your other post. He hates behaviorism but nonetheless he thinks just like a behaviorist. For him, both rewards and punishments compel in ways that violate a child’s autonomy by getter her to do what she hasn’t chosen to do.

Comment by Dennis on 2009?09?24? 10:18 am


Hey Dennis –

Nice to hear from you. Personally (and I think philosophically, too) I don’t disagree — if a child likes running out into traffic, punishment might do the trick _because_ it scares the child. I’m not sure about more serious moral issues, I suppose it would depend. As parents, we know these issues get complicated quickly!

I’d love to read your paper. Can you send it along?

Hampton’s view is interesting. I wonder if for a Confucian, since there are li involved, and that’s what would primarily (but not totally) mark the moral boundaries, whether it is an understanding of context and motivation that would matter. So, for instance, cheating would, presumably, be a violation of li, but it’s not that cheating that is always the moral problem. It depends: why is the child cheating? Towards what end? Think of the father/son case in Analects, where the son lies to cover up for his father. The son did lie, but it’s not considered a transgression (by Confucius). So even in this case, it’s not compliance so much that’s the problem as it is orientation.

Still, though, say that the child has the incorrect motivation when he/she cheats, which would mean an immoral orientation. It’s hard to imagine that punishment would correct the behavior, as opposed to lead to a wily (future) cheater. In a classroom setting (which this would all get very difficult because we’re dealing with more than one person at a time), I wonder if (hypothetically) a collective refusal to engage the child in that activity would be more appropriate (ignoring as opposed to punishing). This might be associated with shame, perhaps. How this would work practically, I have no idea, but just a thought.

In any case, I’ve been working on a paper myself that deals not with the punishment issue, but with relational ‘navigation’ with respect to shu, and it deals with similar questions regarding when and in what situations one should interfere or attempt to correct the behavior of another.

Kohn sounds more extreme Taoist. I say that thinking that perhaps a possible Taoist interpretation is that any sort of ‘handling’ of the child would be contrary to Tao, whether it be through punishment or through positive reinforcement. If that’s Taoist, I’m not sure I like it, though I’m not convinced that it _is_ Taoist in the first place. My own thinking about wu-wei is a bit more moderate (or perhaps confused).

Comment by Chris on 2009?09?24? 11:58 am


Hey Chris, the paper’s on its way. I want to write a second half, which would sort of start with an idea that actually came up during our seminar.

In Book X of the Republic, Socrates asks: “What shall [a person] profit, if his injustice be undetected and unpunished? He who is undetected only gets worse, whereas he who is detected and punished has the brutal part of his nature silenced and humanized…” This expresses an idea that just doesn’t seem to have occurred to Confucians, or any classical Chinese philosophers for that matter, which is that punishment can benefit the one who suffers it. In classical China, punishment is just deterrence,and it works via our fear of pain. On that reading it is purely coercive.

I think the big question here, philosophically anyway, is what must our psychology be like in order for Plato’s idea to make any sense? For Plato and Aristotle the basic idea seems to be that punishment makes vice unpleasant, and since vice is harmful to the soul, (deserved and just) punishment is therefore good for us. I’m not sure I’m entirely on board with this, but I’m not quite sure I’m ready to reject entirely either. Consider this a student who does accept that cheating is wrong, and wants to learn the material, etc. but who is tempted to cheat out of laziness, or desperation, or something along those lines. Couldn’t the threat of punishment both emphasize just how important not cheating is and so also act as a kind of support for their weak will? In this case punishment wouldn’t motivate out of fear, at least not in any sense that is at odds with the student’s actual desires or values.

Kohn is worth reading, even though he’ll probably drive you nuts. He at least is aware that in this neck of the woods at least psychology cannot be divorced from moral theory. I don’t think he’s a daoist though—he’s way too individualistic. I think he’s actually Kantian stripped of every vestige of Lutheran/Xian/natural law morality. It’s all about autonomy and any act not determined by the agent’s own values is inauthentic. Maybe he’s an existentialist, come to think of it. Anyway, I think he gets himself in big trouble all over the place.

Comment by Dennis on 2009?09?24? 2:57 pm


Dennis -

Be sure to send the paper along, I’m looking forward to reading it!

I think you are completely correct vis-a-vis the Greek/Chinese differences on punishment. I don’t think Confucius sees any real benefits to punishment at all, expect perhaps as a last resort, and in this case his thinking seems more oriented around social protection (criminals do have to be stopped, if they can’t be made to see the error of their ways), not for moral improvement. He seems to think that punishment is hopeless on that score (or at least that’s how I read his comments in the Analects).

Still, I don’t think the severing of the connection between Plato/Aristotle and Confucius should be so sharp. Specifically, you say that “…for Plato and Aristotle the basic idea seems to be that punishment makes vice unpleasant, and since vice is harmful to the soul, (deserved and just) punishment is therefore good for us.” I think Confucius might actually accept that whole sentence, though I don’t think it commits him to the view that punishment is beneficial for virtue.

IMO, I think he’d say that vice and virtue are harmful and helpful (respectively) to realizing human nature, and I think Confucius is a eudaimonist in thinking that realizing human nature leads to well being, and so it is good for us. I also think he’d agree that punishment makes vice unpleasant, and that vice leads to us not realizing our nature, but I don’t think he thinks that the unpleasantness of vice serves as a motivating (sufficient) condition for the realization of virtue. At the very least, acting virtuously out of a recognition that vice doesn’t pay won’t lead to well-being at all.

Still, perhaps there’s a Confucian “minimum position” in here. Perhaps he could say this (which I think is in accord with what you’re suggesting): what punishment does do is “scare” us away from this behavior and that. Behaviors, when repeated, produce types of orientation. Vicious behaviors produce, over time, vicious orientation (seeing, thinking, feeling, etc).

When you have vicious orientation, the chances of you taking on virtue, or even of recognizing virtuous exemplars, is pretty small. So perhaps he could say that punishment stops “bad habits” from taking root. So punishment doesn’t make you better,and doesn’t even help to make you better, but rather assures that the “soil” (thinking of Ox Mountain) stays “neutral” at least. It assures that the soil isn’t poisoned, though it doesn’t assure that the soil is nourished.

Perhaps that’s a conciliatory position for a Confucian to take? Of course, I think that even in the case that a Confucian might agree with this outlined view, he/she might also argue that still it is the position of last resort, when positive reinforcement fails and when serious offense/safety is at issue.

What do you think?

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